EGR Valve

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:09 pm

Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve.

My car broke down last night on the way to work Evil or Very Mad

I was accelerating away from the lights not hard by any means when the car lost all power and was misfiring badly. I limped the half mile to work and it sounded like it was running on 3 cylinders (car is a v6) and sounded rough as. There wasn't much I could do last night so I had it recovered to my local garage this morning.

Early enquiries point to it being the EGR valve, apparently if this sticks it will feed one bank of 3 cylinders with recirculated exhaust gas. The valve is only £60 which is a result as I was fearing a dropped valve or something Rolling Eyes

but he can't get one till Monday, so i will have to wait and see. When it was disconnected the car ran on all 6 cylinders but quite roughly, but I imagine this is to be expected. Anyone any experience of a similar failure?

Thanks James Sad

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:32 pm

you could try cutting a stainless steelplate to fit between egr and inlet manifold...
both sides of course...
those nasty exhaustgasses... you don't want these going back into you engine !!

you could get an engine fault code... in that case you can replace the egr valve anyway Wink

JW

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:01 pm

Hopefully it is the valve Rolling Eyes

Seems strange for a part to fail that quickly Confused

5 years old is a bit soon for something like this to pack up. What sort of Mileage?

Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:16 am

That's what I was thinking. I have the B5 QS Avant on a 2001 (Y) plate. Car on 82k. I have read that the EGR valve can stick due to carbon build-up, and is worth cleaning at annual service interval. If you can post some pics - that would be useful. Got me worried now! Shocked

Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:53 pm

I had the codes pulled and they identified the EGR valve.

Car is an 03 on 128k.

I will of course let you know Monday when a new one is fitted as to what the problem was. I won't be able to post pics as the car is at the garage and i'm working nights at the moment so it won't really be practicable, sorry Sad

I don't know whether a carbon build up would cause a sudden failure as I suffered? It's a tiny little valve though, just sat between the bank of cylinders, thats all I know really. i will try and keep hold of the old one and have a look at it. For the cost of one I'm not much inclined to arse about cleaning it really.

Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:07 pm

not had issues wiht mine ont he A4, but the A6 one can be stroppy but not to the extend of making the car run awful.

I have heard of many folk just blanking them off or bypassing them in the first place. if it still throws a fault code, don't know.

note for you James (and spartacus), drove to londinium and back last week, 1200 mile round trip from my part of the world. broken the MPG record, got 42mpg whole trip and 44.9mpg for the motorway averages (1080 miles)

Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:47 pm

Well done, you must have been impersonating Morgan Freeman driving Miss Daisy! Laughing

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:50 am

Not good news Sad

The new EGR valve was fitted today, and whilst it cured the misfire the engine was still knocking badly. Apparently it sounds like it has dropped a valve or possibly has some piston damage. Which is disappointing. So the next step is for the head to come off and see what the damage is.

I am now wondering how much of it was the EGR valve, clearly it was gone as the car now runs on all 6 cylinders again, and vag-com identified it as failed. I literally drove it less than a mile all downhill after the problem manifested itself, but it seems coincidental this damage occured at the same time. So I can only assume that driving it that short distance with the EGR stuck open has damaged the internals of the engine somehow Rolling Eyes

Will know more when the head is off Crying or Very sad

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:18 am

I can't see it as simply a symptom of the EGR failing to work. All it it is a valve. Open below certain revs to recirc exhaust gas back through the engine, closed above certain revs where emissions are not a factor.

If something had come off the EGR valve and entered the engine through the inlet manifold, maybe, but just the EGR failing to work, nope don't believe it could be that James.

Early EGR's like that fitted to my TDi, were an mechanical vacuum operated valve, I believe the later ones as fitted to yours, are an electrical motor driven valve, hence the ECU being able to log a code for it when it fails to work.

Hope it's not too bad mate, fingers crossed.

Jase..

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:55 am

Thanks Jase, I guess it's one of three things:

1) The engine damage and failed EGR are totally unrelated, I can't see this and am not a big believer in coincidences!
2) The EGR failed and caused some internal damage through gases passing back into the engine, or a small 'bit' of the valve entering the head.
3) The internal damage happened first which led to the failure of the EGR.

Time will tell Wink

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:16 am

in my experience

4) the EGR has a mind of its own

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:41 pm

Any news James??

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:15 pm

Yes, but not great Sad

One of the timing belt idler pulleys has disintegrated and caused the belt to jump four teeth on one cam. So the next job is for the head to come off and see the extent of the valve/piston damage..... I know hindsight is great, but the belt change interval is 70k, the car is currently on 128k so due to be changed again at 140k. I had it serviced in August at 125k and thought about getting the belt and pulleys changed then, but couldn't really afford it so decided to wait to the next service at 134k, still some way of the recommended interval Rolling Eyes

I understand the belt and pulleys were changed at 70k according to the service history, so am a bit disappointed the pulleys have failed so soon. One plus point (I had to look hard for this) is that the water pump is leaking so I won't have to change that or pay for the cambelt change at the next service Very Happy

The head is due to be stripped on Monday, so will know more then. The role of the EGR valve is still unsure, it appears it had definitely failed, coincidentally or otherwise .....

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:32 pm

I was under the impression that the cam belt on 2.5 V6 engines was every 80k and 1.9 TDi 4 cylinder units every 60k.

I had mine done at 78k and they changed one of the pulleys (in addition to the tensioner pulley) at the same time. About the only time this can be checked. Does it have a full VAG service history? Only reason I ask - is surely Audi have some responsibility if it's been maintained to their service schedule, intervals, etc.

Gutted for you - hopefully it's not going to be too expensive. Sad

Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:45 pm

Ok, I thought mine was 70k, but will double check. Either way it shouldn't have broke Rolling Eyes

Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:03 pm

Could this get any worse!

The rocker covers were taken off and both heads are knackered. The cam gears are stripped and the valves chewed, bits of metal have gone down into the bores. The heads haven't yet been removed in a bid to save some labour time, but it's safe to assume there could well be some piston damage. The mechanic said it's a wonder it ran at all, let alone on all 6 cylinders after the new EGR was fitted.

New heads are £600 each and a cam belt kit £400.

In an effort to minimise the bill the garage have suggested it may be more economical to source another engine. VAG Parts priced a short engine with two new heads as an exchange through a dealer at £3800 plus vat. This is too much for me. I have tried all the Audi breakers and even some local breakers but none have an engine of any description, apparently the 2.5TDi 180 being rare as hens teeth. I 'don't mind' buying a new short engine with heads if it was say £2500 to £3000 fitted as it would give me a new engine which is a known quantity. Buying an unknown second hand engine off Ebay is less reassuring.

My next step is to put feelers out in the forums and try ebay Germany for a 2.5 engine in any kind of condition, as long as the engine is sound I have all the ancillaries. I am currently at work and can't access Ebay (or smilies!) so have no idea on likely cost or even availability. The car is perhaps worth £8k but a non runner maybe £2k if I broke it. So I have no alternative but to fix it, but can neither afford or justify a £5k bill.

Anyone know the engine code for a 2003 2.5TDi Quattro (180)?

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:58 am

James this doesnt make for good reading.

Look back thats what happened to me in the summer time mate. i got mine replaced by Audi FOC... dodgy batch i was told. mine stopped instantly the car was robbed of power then went for about 400 yards and stopped, i was on the MAIN road (read only) north at a set of lights with traffic flowing one way at a time, front of the row with an uphill climb out when it happened to me.

Mine is an AKE code, lift up the cover and its stamped on the right side of the block. The later 2004 onwards i am sure are BAU codes. Why are there two codes? No idea. But the 2004 A4 was facelifted, but i have no idea what changes were made to the engine.

Intervals i can have that checked for you if you like, pm me if you need backup details. 70k is what i thought, if you want a small laugh... i drove mine back to aberdeen, striaght to the garage for a full service and timing belt change. wasnt until i was cleaning the car last month in about the engine bay right at the leading edge of the bonnet was a stick from audiStockport saying the belts had been done at 69k... i had them done twice in 6k.. ARSE.

Still stands the same, when this engine works its great when it doesn't its horrific. You might ironically be better of finding a cheaper 2.5TDi QS, plundering the engine then breaking the rest.

http://search.autotrader.co.uk/es-uk/www/cars/AUDI/Ne-2-4-5-6-7-8-27-44-49-53-61-64-67-103-133-146-236,N-24-51-112-240-4294966997/advert.action?R=200844322049453&distance=20&postcode=AB25+3UR&channel=CARS&make=AUDI&model=&min_pr=&max_pr=10000&max_mileage=

£3k ish, ok its heaps but then you have a shell to sell? Not the best answer but... keep up updated, i will ask my trade guys where they would source.

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:00 am

AKE = 132kw (180hp), 12/2000 - 05/2003. Also fitted in the A6 (11/1999 - 08/2003) and the A8 (11/1999 - 09/2002).

BAU = 132kw (180hp), 06/2003 - 12/2004. Also fitted in the A6 (02/2003 - 08/2005).

Like Iain says, the engine number will be on your block, also a couple of other places too.

Sorry to hear this mate, I'd be inclined to try for a claim from Audi. They may say no, but then again, they could admit it's a fault as Iain says, and replace whatever's needed. No harm in trying.

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:31 pm

You think? I would love it if they did! But surely the failure of an idler pulley being a consumable part is not a warranty issue is it? I will find the number for Audi UK and ring them. The problem is I cannot prove the idler's were definately replaced at 70k.

I have tried Ebay UK but no TDi V6 engines, a few 1.9's, and a 3.0 from an A8 Twisted Evil

Just going to try and decipher Ebay.de

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:55 pm

You think? I would love it if they did! But surely the failure of an idler pulley being a consumable part is not a warranty issue is it? I will find the number for Audi UK and ring them. The problem is I cannot prove the idler's were definately replaced at 70k.

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:13 pm

Thanks for your concern Alan.

I need to get the service book from the car which I will do in a bit. The cambelt was changed by an independant at 70k or thereabouts. There is no mention in the service book of whether the idlers were done too. When I have the book here I will ring them and find out if their records show anything. When I have my facts straight then I will ring Audi UK and see what they say.

I followed an online enquiry link from ebay to a company called the Engine Centre based in London who claim to have a suitable engine for £1800 plus vat, which is bearable. Just Sad

Engine has 41k and is exchange with no ancillaries. Just need to ge the code confirmed for my car.

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:38 pm

One last place the engine code is also stated. On the inside cover of your service book is an identical sticker to the data sticker on the car.

Jase..
Wink

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:04 pm

yes call audi... ok mine were replaced months previous but they shouldnt have failed. And yes this is open to interpretation but if the stated intervals were adhered to and documented i think you have a case but ultimately they can say now, issue with that i guess is that you may have to go to a dealership for the work which is instantly expensive.

try allaudi.co.uk as well they are breakers and can lay their hands on a lot of things.

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:49 pm

Car has (had Rolling Eyes

) an AKE engine.

I rang the garage that did the original cambelt change at 70k back in 2006. They stated that they didn't change the idlers as "Their policy is to check at every 20k" - Not much can be said to that really, other than nothing can be done now. Given they are an independant too I don't see I have any hope of a claim from Audi.

A company called "The Engine Centre" in London have an AKE engine with 41k on for £1800 plus vat with a one years warranty. Any one any experience of this company? It is the only second hand engine I have seen so far, without looking to break a complete car.

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:09 pm

Don't give up, phone Audi...
I had 'warrenty' issuses with mine - half of the service book was stamped with Independant 'Specialists' stamps, I still went ahead with the claim and it went in my favour
It's worth a shot
Wink

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:49 pm

Hi James,

Ring Audi....

Then - and only then - consider the alternative of another engine. I have no knowledge or experience of the company with the secondhand lump - Google them to see if there's anything on them.

Also consider if they can guarantee the mileage - and hence give you the peace of mind that it doesn't need cambelt, tensioners, etc. yet. With your ongoing experiences, are you prepared to take that risk, or do you need to factor in extra cost to replace them too?

IF you need to go for the secondhand lump, I suggest you start by offering them a lower price (again, shy bairns get nowt Wink

), as you'll also need to pay for delivery, fitting etc. on top.

Apologies if I'm stating the obvious, just that an objective view can often help.

Ring Audi....

Alan Very Happy

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:55 pm

Stating the obvious is good Alan, for someone as confused as me Laughing

Good thinking asking for proof of mileage! The guy said it has 41k on, came from a main dealer and had been tested running and had a 12 month warranty. I have put a post in the dealer/independant section with my main concerns. I asked him what work they had done on the engine since it was removed from the car, and he stated none. When I asked why the engine had been removed from the car, or was it accident damaged he couldn't really answer. Made me a bit suspicious in all honesty.

Irrespective of mileage or perceived condition I will be replacing water pump, belts and pulleys before it's fitted Wink

Oh, and will ring Audi ....

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:59 pm

I tried allaudi, but nothing Sad

Interesting point on service intervals Iain. My service book says:

"Camshaft drive belt, and tensioning roller to be replace every 80k miles"

The specialist who did this work, at 74k miles said that the service spec he has from Audi (2008 - unsure which spec he uses) states the belt should be changed every 70k and the tensioning rollers to be checked at service every 20k Confused

Seems there is some misunderstanding here, I would be interested to hear a definitive answer.

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:05 pm

the only way your going to find out.. and you can guess whats coming...
PHONE AUDI

does that help Wink

i know its fairly depressing news but give them a call, full story and push for this, if its been inspected and passed then its still failed.

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:02 am

Yes, phone Audi Exclamation

I know in these sorts of situations - it's a case of buying now and asking questions later, but if you shell out £1,800 (plus VAT) for a second hand engine - Audi may have strings attached. For example - they may consider contribution, but to their terms (such as discounted labour rates to fit a new/exchange engine). You definately have to have that conversation first, preferably one-to-one with a main dealer who will be able to forward your claim to Audi UK.

The reality is you probably need a car now. If you're lucky enough to have access to another set of wheels - even better, as it will take the pressure off you and avoid having to make snap decisions on whether to source a second-hand engine, without verified history, etc.

I don't understand the visual inspection every 20k? The independent mechanic who did mine said once the front of the car is off - only then can they fully inspect the belt and pulley system. Obviously the tensioner pulley is replaced as a matter of course - but the other pulleys are inspected too (without the belt), to see if there is any noise, play, or vibration, without the engine running.

A visual inspection (in my opinion) wouldn't flag up a potential internal bearing failure on one of the pulleys. Shock

Keep us posted James.